Ulf Tubessing, 2 Apr 2024 I stopped using WBP (perphenazine hydrochloride) in lechwe because they become zombies even on 10 mg. This was extremely pronounced on one specific farm, but I found on other farms that I ended up giving Akineton to 1 out of 10 lechwe. Has anybody else had similar experience? HO Reuter, [02 Apr 2024 at 16:47:43]: Hi Ulf, Did the lechwe show extrapyramidal signs, or only zombie like status? Had you darted them? What cocktail? I have had lechwe and tsessebe “re-narcotizing” following Thianil / medetomidine immobilisations. In both cases, there was improvement following additional atipamezole/ yohimbine injection. The tsessebe had WBP. I cannot remember if I had also used WBP or azaperone in the lechwe? I think medetomidine has (variable and not consistent in all animals) potentiating effects on many drugs, depending on their nutritional state, condition, underlying parasite burden? I often use higher reversal dosages of yohimbine / atipamezole than many colleagues do (i.e. atipamezole at 2 x medetomidine dose compared to 1x). Ulf Tubessing, [02 Apr 2024 at 16:51:17]: Hi HO. They were mostly zombie like, not reviving properly at reversal after darting (WBP was included in the dart mix). In these cases, we always first give another dose of the atipamezole/yohimbine mixture, but usually to no effect. The next step is Akineton and within minutes they are up and OK. I am convinced that on some farms they are more sensitive to the perphenazine HCL HO Reuter, [02 Apr 2024 at 16:56:16]: I think perphenazine HCL is also a potent (and therefore effective) tranquilizer. At least we have the option to partially reverse with Akineton. Ulf Tubessing, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:03:55]: That is one of the reasons I like it. To avoid confusion in multiple drug cocktails, I always top up reversals in a systematic drug for drug basis (unless a crisis). I usually accept that the naltrexone dose was sufficient to reverse the opioid and thus start by giving a 2nd dose of atipamezole/ yohimbine mixture and if no response within 5-10 min, I give Akineton. This enables me to make a clear distinction between medetomidine compared to the WBP reaction. WBP, even though really potent, seems to knock animals badly but rarely kills. I had a recent conversation with a guy who gave 60 mg to blue wildebeest bulls. Most were zombies, standing on one spot with their mouth in food eating, but otherwise pretty non-responsive. One was flat out recumbent and non-responsive for many hours. After giving 1 ampoule of Akineton, it was up and munching away. HO Reuter, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:11:08]: I agree, its relatively safe even if "over tranquilised”. The only potential problem is if they are in a truck and they start lying on top of each other, or trampling on those lying down. Getting their horns hooked in a woven rubber ground mat is also a problem. Ulf Tubessing, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:23:13]: Lots of things can go wrong under those circumstances. I have found 20 mg WBP in 18+ month old giraffe and up to 30 mg IM old bulls works wonders during transport, which is a low dose for such big animals Henry Labuschagne, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:35:24]: I struggle to get Akineton vials. Only 2mg tablets available. Is there a generic for biperiden available? Gernot Redeker, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:45:42]: Hi Ulf. I use Thianil/ medetomidine/ azaperone combination in the dart for lechwe, fully reverse them at the end, but give them a quite high dose of WBP (20-25 mg) in rams. It works like a bomb for me. They travel very well, no jumping and breaking their teeth. They get out of the truck easily, so I like WBP in Lechwe. Henry Labuschagne, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:48:41]: Don't you get extrapyramidal Sx with WBP on top of azaperone? I prefer WBP in the dart in place of azaperone. Gernot Redeker, [02 Apr 2024 at 17:50:12]: Nope. All animals I dart, I do with this combination. It does not matter whether it is sable, roan or even springbok. All get WBP and I have never had problems. The lateral recumbent bull was lateral for 4 hrs until we could get Akineton there. He got up within minutes after 0.5ml IV and 0.5ml IM, and lived happily ever after. Since this experience I also think the WBP is a very safe drug. Andreas Gaugler, [03 Apr 2024 at 07:44:09]: Gernot. Do you use WBP in the dart or do you give it separate before the atipamezole / yohimbine and naltrexone? And IV or IM? Ulf Tubessing, [03 Apr 2024 at 07:51:10]: Hi Andreas, you can do as you like. Initially I gave WBP IV after animal goes down, but now I use it in dart in place of azaperone. Gernot Redeker [03 Apr 2024 at 08:02:54]: Hi Andreas, I give it IM on reversal. I reverse IV. Andreas Gaugler, [03 Apr 2024 at 08:03:51]: Ulf, I wonder if this may be a difference also IV vs IM in Lechwe? Henry Labuachagne, [03 Apr 2024 at 08:35:54]: I see WBP effect within minutes of I/M injection so I seldom use it iv. Andreas Gaugler, [03 Apr 2024 at 08:38:25]: That makes sense Henry, as it is very soluble. Would the potentiating effect be higher when in the dart compared to being given separately before antagonizing the Thianil and the medetomidine? Henry Labuachagne, [03 Apr 2024 at 08:43:27]: Dries. If I am going to use WBP, I use it in the dart cocktail. So you reverse the opioid and the alpha-2 agonist and the animal wakes up calmly. If you reverse the opioid and then give WBP, the animal may be awake and not calm until the WBP takes effect, albeit for a few minutes. To me it makes more sense to use it in the dart: one less drug to use and one less injection to give I also compensate on WBP dose if azaperone is used in the dart to avoid extrapyramidal Sx. By using WBP in dart you can use the full dose WBP in dart and don't have to worry about interaction with azaperone. Andreas Gaugler, [03 Apr 2024 at 08:54:38]: Thanks Henry. Makes sense Up to now, I always gave WBP IV before antagonizing the opioid, but still give 2 minutes between the administration of atipamezole/yohimbine mixture and naltrexone, which may give the faster effects of WBP But I have not done any lechwe recently to compare to Ulf's experience Ulf Tubessing, [03 Apr 2024 at 09:53:37]: I now routinely use WBP in the dart. The concentration enables me to even dart eland with a 1 ml dart. In the past, I used to dart and then give WBP IV before the opioid reversal. As far as I am concerned, the WBP in the dart provides an IM injection a few minutes earlier and definitely results in a quicker and smoother induction. Werner Rogl, [04 Apr 2024 at 08:17:43]: Very interesting Ulf. Like Gernot, I use in big lechwe rams Thianil 2 - 2.5 mg + medetomidine 2 mg + azaperone 20 mg and top up with 20-30 WBP i.m. before wake it up. Lechwe rams like to jump 😳. This works very well for me, BUT Lechwe are very sensitive to medetomidine, so I reverse with 150% of the normal Yohimbine/Atipamezole mixture I.V. HO Reuter, [04 Apr 2024 at 09:05:10]: I used to use similar dosages. I now prefer Thianil 1.5 mg + medetomidine 2.5-3 mg + WBP 20 (or Azaperone) for big lechwe rams in dart. I agree lechwe are sensitive to medetomidine, and especially with higher opioid dose and if kept down longer. Ulf Tubessing, [04 Apr 2024 at 10:21:38]: My Thianil + medetomidine dosage is the same as Werner’s, on some farms higher and I use 10 WBP in dart, no azaperone. I have a problem mostly on 1 farm near Outjo. I reverse the Thianil and medetomidine properly, yet affected animals only get up straight after Akineton administration.
