Gernot Redeker [7:18 pm, 06/06/2022]: Hi Hendrik. Just a question to you or for that matter any other Vet. I am using your low opioid (HH) combinations on all my antelope. The questions now is, have you experienced that especially oryx take a lot more drugs at different areas? I use to do oryx with 2-2.5 mg Thianil with 4 mg medetomidine. I did 20 oryx in the Kalahari last week, the first one I darted did not show any affect after 8min, gave a full (2.5/4) second dart as I thought the first dart did not go off, 10 min after the second dart the animal started showing but no way close to going down so I gave it a third dart with 2 mg Thianil 2 mg med and then after 7 min it was down. I checked and found that all the dart mixture did inject (the dart placement was good), so the oryx cow had 6mg Thianil and 10mg medetomidine on board. I slowly increased as I went and only at 5mg thiafentanil and 7 mg medetomidine did they go down. Down time still 7-10 min. Maybe any Namibian Vet who can comment on that? Have you experienced the same? Any explanation? Ulf Tubessing [7:24 pm, 06/06/2022]: Hi Gernot. We breed them tough in Namibia 😎. As a matter of routine, I increase all dosages on HH mixture by at least 25-30% on antelope. I recently darted a bunch of oryx (after a very long time). Same experience as you and eventually used 6 mg Thianil, 5 mg medetomidine and 20 WBP to get good down times. Considering additional cost of reversal and dramatically increased chopper time, I would actually consider reverting back to the high dose (8-10 mg) Thianil only. Gernot Redeker [7:30 pm, 06/06/2022]: Thanks. I was on the verge of going straight back to high Thianil only..... David Pretorius [7:31 pm, 06/06/2022] : Try Thianil 2mg + medetomidine 8mg + azaperone 20. Don’t increase Thianil - you will stimulate more running. Gernot Redeker [7:38 pm, 06/06/2022]: Ulf, I agree our oryx are a different cattle of fish. All other antelope I am full on HH but with oryx I also use higher Thianil HO Reuter [7:38 pm, 06/06/2022]: Hi Gernot. I recently used 2mg etorphine, 2mg Thianil, 6mg medetomidine, 50mg ketamine, 1500 IU Hyalase with 1 1/4“ needle (I prefer these longer needles in oryx in good condition.) The downtime was 4.5 minutes, but oryx was too flat for my liking, even though the colour good. Adding Hyalase to darts reduces downtime in most / all species. So does ketamine in my experience, but you get additional muscle relaxation. I struggle with trying to get quick down times on HH dosage, especially keeping anaesthesia not too deep, especially with long recoveries. Sometimes I revert back to my pre HH cocktails for chopper darting, as chopper cost cancels drug cost saving in some scenarios. HO Reuter [7:40 pm, 06/06/2022]: My previous mix was etorphine 5mg + Thianil 5mg and azaperone 50 plus Hyalase for mature cows. Gernot Redeker [7:42 pm, 06/06/2022] : Agree HO I love using ketamine in antelope Ean van den Berg [7:45 pm, 06/06/2022]: I disagree David. If you give an adult gemsbok 8-10mg Thianil plus 40mg azaperone with good dart placement, very few SA gemsbok will run longer than 4min if darted out of a helicopter. I did gemsbok out of helicopter with 2 mg Thianil + 5mg medetomidine + 20 mg azaperone out of a helicopter - some of them ran for 10min. David Pretorius [7:47 pm, 06/06/2022]: That is for Namibian gemsbok, not SA. Here I use Thianil 2mg + medetomidine 4-6 mg + azaperone 20-40mg and it works perfectly. Ean van den Berg [7:48 pm, 06/06/2022]: I am referring to you saying if you increase Thianil, you will stimulate more running. I do not agree with that. Andreas Gaugler [7:49 pm, 06/06/2022] : David and Hendrik we will have to get you to the Kalahari to show us👍🏻 But if an oryx runs for 8 mins, my pilot starts getting very rude on min 5🤣 Ean van den Berg [7:49 pm, 06/06/2022] : Higher Thianil doses gives a lot shorter downtimes. I cannot say it is safer as I do not have the research comparing the 2 regimes. But 10 mg Thianil will put a gemsbok on its bum a lot quicker. David Pretorius [7:51 pm, 06/06/2022]: Tell the pilot to run a stop watch - it will help calm him. Then chat to him and teach him that the safety of animal is not necessarily in a quick induction. We need to understand that we need to evaluate the whole immobilization. How many times do we need to top-up with ketamine and now it is almost never needed anymore? HO Reuter [7:51 pm, 06/06/2022]: We have darted many hundreds of oryx on high opioid regimes with minimal problems. David Pretorius [7:58 pm, 06/06/2022]: There seems to be a middle ground where you enter a hyper-excitement phase with a medium Thianil dose causing more running instead of less. You need to choose either high or very low to miss this area of excitement. If you stay out of it, you will have approachable animals 5 min into darting which you can manipulate to a point. Next time try 0.75 mg Thianil and 5 mg medetomidine and 20 mg azaperone in a fat buffalo cow. Compared to Thianil 7 mg + azaperone 20 mg. If you top-up with ketamine it will be more flaccid etc. Go spend a day or 2 with HH. It will change your views. Go one on one without a workshop where you can relax and see how well these animals behave. Post darting boma adaptation etc is also smoother with the addition of WBP (water-based perphenazine / perphenazine hydrochloride) to the low dose medetomidine. David Pretorius [8:08 pm, 06/06/2022]: Let us know how it goes. Also if you want to decrease induction time.. a nice shot on the side of the shoulder just above/behind the shoulder work beautifully. Hendrik Hansen [3:52 am, 07/06/2022]: I agree with David that the perfect synergistic dose balance is often not higher opioid, but rather lower. There must be a stimulation of some sort that excites the receptors at a critical stage. Gernot, I would try slightly lower opioid and higher medetomidine. This sounds completely wrong, I know, but it's worked like that mostly. I also agree gemsbok can be a challenge, but one needs to find the sweet spot.
