Pierre Nel, [06 Aug 2024 at 20:04:10]: Any suggestions for reasonably reliable cocktail to get a standing sedation in a 27-month-old white rhino in a boma for bandage change on a leg? I was thinking 2,5 mg medetomidine + 50-60 mg butorphanol 🤷♂️ Hendrik Hansen, [06 Aug 2024 at 20:17:03]: I think you are spot on, Pierre Pierre Nel, [09 Aug 2024 at 07:28:06]: Just for feedback- used 2,5 mg medetomidine + 55 mg butorphanol. At 13 min she went down on her front legs, but she would let herself be pushed down on her side. I was not comfortable with the abdominal organs pushing on diaphragm, so we prodded her up in front every time she went down and kept her standing the whole time. 2,5 mg medetomidine in retrospect probably a tad high. 2 mg medetomidine + 50 mg butorphanol should be fine Hendrik Hansen, [09 Aug 2024 at 09:39:41]: Thank you for the feedback, Pierre Gernot Redeker, [09 Aug 2024 at 10:04:39]: Would a combination of butorphanol and medetomidine work on a 3-year-old bull darted from the car in a game camp? Can one walk them with this dose into a crate? Why I am asking is, I darted him last week with 1.5 mg Thianil and 6 mg medetomidine. It was standing at 4 min, I gave him 20 mg butorphanol and 2ml yohimbine /Revazole (atipamezole) mix IV, he was standing for 10min while he was MC etc etc. He then went sternal and I could not get him back up on his legs to walk and load him into the crate. He was quite awake after the administration of 0.5 ml M50-50 (diprenorphine), but his hind legs kept on splaying behind him as if he was paralysed in his back. He got up on the front legs but not hind legs. I decided to abort the loading and fully reversed him with yohimbine/Revazole and Trexonil (naltrexone). He got up 1 min after the IV injections as if nothing had ever happened 🙈 Was he just naughty? Any wise thoughts? I need to do him again obviously to load him.... Thanks in advance Hendrik Hansen, [09 Aug 2024 at 10:34:38]: Yes, it would work better for loading using the butorphanol instead of a potent opioid in combination with the medetomidine. Having said that, in your previous situation it might have been better to reverse the medetomidine instead of the opioid? But some of them are just naughty. Gernot Redeker, [09 Aug 2024 at 10:37:27]: Thanks Hendrik. 110 mg butorphanol and 6 mg medetomidine on a 3-year old? HO Reuter, [09 Aug 2024 at 13:34:58] Hi Gernot, I had used Thianil 2 mg + medetomidine 10 mg + azaperone 20 mg for mature cows and bulls, and struggled loading/ walking some of them. Now I add 5-7.5 mg midazolam instead of azaperone. (and I add Hyalase if darted from a helicopter). For 2.5 - 3 year olds, 1/2 this dose will be enough. I now reverse with butorphanol at 15-20 x the Thianil dose in mg, plus 1 ml atipamezole/yohimbine mixture per mg medetomidine at least 10 min before loading, If they don’t get up easily with the first prod, I give more atipamezole/ yohimbine, maybe even more butorphanol or diprenorphine as my gut tells me, wait another few minutes and then prod again. Most of them walk easy and beautifully. If you are too conservative on atipamezole/yohimbine dose, which I was initially, and you start prodding and tugging a lot, then only add more antidote, they are later wide awake, but don’t get up (are naughty ?) until you take the right decision, use naltrexone reversal and they are 💯. For darting from a vehicle, slightly lower doses (even if with longer induction time) is preferred in my experience and opinion. If you do substitute Thianil with butorphanol, give the animal extra time. The anaesthesia is amazing when they stand/ go down eventually, but do not try and be heroic to catch and blindfold them too early. Also be more conservative on atipamezole/yohimbine dose and the use of prodder. They can try and hit you with horn / head if approached too early or stimulated too much (e.g. prodding). With the Thianil + medetomidine dosage, I find white rhino capture smooth, with no urgent need for immediate supplemental butorphanol or oxygen. I have given around 80 mg water-based perphenazine (WBP / perphenazine hydrochloride) to adults, proportionately less on sub-adults, but found response to this varying. Initially they stand perfectly in the crate, with no pushing / fighting, or restlessness. But some of them start trying to climb out crate after a while, especially if the truck is standing and there is activity around. I have had unusual experience with some white rhino that are excessively aggressive at release, either charging crate or vehicles or running out like a bullet. I think a better combination of zuclopenthixol acetate plus azaperone, or a higher dose of water-based perphenazine or something must work better than what I have seen. Loading and transport the animals as soon as possible, and release after a shortish trip of up to 6 hrs is optimal. well. Standing overnight or longer transport does not give ideal release scenarios. Have others had similar experience? Jacs Mostert, [10 Aug 2024 at 12:24:04]: Good day, With reference to walking a rhino - is it a white rhino or a black rhino? My take on the challenges with walking the animal after darting with Thiafentanil in the combination is also to do with how the butorphanol interacts on the receptors that the thiafentanil is acting on - in short, butorphanol definitely does not have the same effect on partially "reversing" thiafentanil as it does with etorphine for example. HO Reuter, [10 Aug 2024 at 18:42:22]: Hi Jacs, I have no idea what the effect of butorphanol on which receptors should be on Thianil vs etorphine. But from my experience it certainly has some partial reversal effect on both opioids. If in combination with medetomidine, I have always also partially reversed with the atipamezole / yohimbine mix, so cannot say which effect to attribute to which drugs, and obviously also synergistic effects. I recently used a slightly high dose Thianil 1mg + medetomidine 5 mg on a 2 year old rhino calf - 2/3 this dose would have been enough. The rhino went down too fast (3 min) and probably too deep. I immediately gave 25 mg butorphanol and 3 ml atipamezole/yohimbine mixture - anesthesia was nice and when crate was ready we walked him easily with no prodding. Also if rhino get too much Thianil + medetomidine they sometimes also shake, that hypoxic tremble we all know from higher opioid dosage. That also reduces with partial reversal with butorphanol plus the atipamezole/yohimbine mixture. I have also seen in impala, nyala, sable and roan, butorphanol partially reverses Thianil. Erik Verrynne, [10 Aug 2024 at 18:17:43]: My mixture for a 3-year-old that works well is etorphine 0.75 mg plus medetomidine 4 mg and azaperone 10 mg. Sometimes I use etorphine 0.5mg + butorphanol 25 - 30mg + medetomidine 3-4 mg. Touch wood, I have had no issues loading or walking so far and often do not need to reverse anything until in crate. Erik Verrynne, [10 Aug 2024 at 19:06:01]: Thanks HO. Very helpful. I seldom need to reverse the medetomidine when loading as I use lower dosages. But you never know and I have 20 white rhino cows coming up for loading, some will need dehorning. I use a lower dosage on adults, usually etorphine 2 mg + medetomidine 8 mg + azaperone 25 mg if I need to dehorn and load. They walk well with diluted diprenorphine Hendrik Hansen, [10 Aug 2024 at 19:56:21]: Erik. The butorphanol-medetomidine-midazolam protocol is great for dehorning and then walking for loading. They seem to react well to a prodder even after being down for longer. My adult cow dose from a helicopter is 150-180 butorphanol 12- 16 mg medetomidine and 10-20 mg midazolam iv if needed. Volume is a problem, but the addition of Hyalase is good for quicker knockdown. After dehorning, I seldom need any reversal, but I first go 0.5 mg medetomidine: 1 mg atipamezole, wait a few minutes and load. Erik Verrynne, [10 Aug 2024 at 19:58:11]: Thanks Hendrik. I will try it. For now, my challenge is my butorphanol stock. I won’t have enough. And getting it here takes time
